A thought for Mr. Maxum - Maxum Boat Owners Club

Argonaut · 01-02-2008, 09:58 PM

The 1800 SR3 is a great boat, but here in Europe (especially in UK) fuel costs for petrol are very high ... just over £1 a litre, equiv to $7.60 per US gallon.

The thirsty 4.3L petrol is needed to get a reasonable number of horses, however some manufacturers are now fitting an alternative -
The VW Marine engine.

In Europe we have a long history of very efficient small compact Diesel's, and in cars there is the very well respected engine used in the Audi A6, A8 and various SUV's ... this is the 3 Litre VW diesel.
This is now being produced by VW marine as a drop in complete marinised unit ... giving a 225hp package in a smaller footprint and less weight than a V6 petrol.

VW marine state that it has better acceleration than a 220hp petrol, and being diesel has bucket loads of low end torque ... which makes it ideal for large or duo prop installs.

Master Craft for example now have this in their Master Craft Pro Star 190. They quote that the diesel had not only to be good for a diesel it had to be as good as the petrol.

This is a high revvving performance engine .... maybe Mr. maxum it's time to take a look at alternatives.?

If you want some other options :

I had an LPG converted V8 on a previous boat and that was 50% cheaper to fill, and you can still run on petrol at a flick of a switch.
All it needs is build in at construction time to be cheap - after conversions are expensive.

Howbaout a Hydrogen fuel cell engine, BMW now make one for the 5 & 7 series ... with added beneift that it has zero emissions, all that comes out of exhaust is plain old water.
THis gives the grunt of an internal combustion engine with benefits of Hydrogen fuel ... no batteries so no weight penalty.

So Mr. maxum ... howabout it.

seapuppy · 01-03-2008, 03:02 AM

I was reading about the diesel engine by VW and it sounds like a cool option....thanks for posting...... 8)

racer2c · 01-03-2008, 04:06 AM

As fuel prices continue to rise I've been thinking about alternative power sources for boats more and more. My assumption about the manufacturers continued use of lump engines is that they still maintain the attitude, since boats are basically a luxury item, those that have them can afford the fuel to run them without any concern of cost. Which, really is probably true for a large portion of the boating world. The exception would be those, like me, in the smaller boats where paying $2000 a year in fuel is in the budget but $3000 isn't.

The majority of the boats here in Tampa, that navigate the Gulf of Mexico use outboards because they can pull them out of the salt water without yanking the boat. From small skiffs to 35' fishing boats that use 4 250 hp Yami's, 'rudes and Mercs etc. These outboards have more horsepower than my 190 4.3 V6 (and most 5 liter V8's) and use less gas and less weight and probably emit less emissions.

The 4.3, 5.0 and 5.7 GM blocks are dirt cheap for Merc to convert. It will really boil down to consumer demand or lack thereof. Your typical 18' sport boat owner is going to have a limited budget for fuel. Sales will only decrease as fuel costs rise with the current batch of power plants. It's easy to see.

As the Boat US magazine likes to remind their readers, as the wealth of the world increases, the wealthy decrease opportunities for boating for the middle class by buying up water front real estate and thus making public accessible launches rare. Something that I am already witnessing here in FL.

It won't be long and boating will be an activity left only to the very rich...those who can afford the fuel...have water access...and support the expensive waterside marinas. Bleak outlook? Maybe. It's not here yet, but it could be.

To circle back around to the original topic I believe it is necessary for the boat manufactures to enter into a new era of affordable, fuel efficient power plants for sub 22 footers if they care about selling them in the future. But I don't think they care now or will care in the future. Their highest profit margin is in the sport cruiser/sport yacht market.

Argonaut · 01-03-2008, 08:36 AM

>It won't be long and boating will be an activity left only to the very rich

about where it started then.

A small fuel efficient high torque high power output power plant would seem ideal for bulk market.

Matercraft need the ability to pop skiers - their reputation is built on it, and if the diesel is now suitable for them, it's time others looked at this.

zt260 · 01-03-2008, 12:21 PM

Plenty of waterfront property for sale in nov scotia :wink:

Brit Rider · 01-03-2008, 03:25 PM

I would love to see Diesel... one problem though.

Call Simon Waring at Mastercraft, his number is: 01977674635; ask him how much a Diesel is over a Petrol MCX - The price is astronomical! These engines make perfect sense, apart from the the price tag, they are stupid money.

A 4.3 MPI engine can be bought from Mercruiser for around $7k by a big manufacturer, a VW lump is triple that, if not more.

Argonaut · 01-03-2008, 04:14 PM

There a re anumber of excellent diesel packs out there ... VW/Audi is only one.
BMW, Honda ... Brunswick has big enough buying power, and as it owns Mercruiser ... perhaps Merc are looking at a small Disel lump ? Volvo certainly now do them.

Flying_Maxum · 01-03-2008, 06:33 PM

I was just reading in "Go Boating" magazine about Volvo (I think) putting out a new compact diesel to go along with their other diesels. Designed to fit in smaller places, it is designed as a "slant" 4 cylinder block.

Overfinch · 01-03-2008, 07:44 PM

To put it into perspective the top of the range 280 mastercraft fitted with twin diesel vags costs £27500 MORE than a twin small block set up! 27000 liters of fuel would keep me going for a few seasons.
Nice idea tho if you can get some serious economies of scale......

swilson · 01-04-2008, 03:18 AM

Lets face it in most cases boating is an expensive sport. I would rather pay less for the boat and use it less, then not be able to afford the boat at all. The idea of switching engines using alternative fues etc., will only come to the mainstream when demanded by the people. Look how many hybrid cars and suvs there are now, the public demanded them and costs are coming down.

Unfortunately, until the demand for boats in the U.S. changes things will remain the mostly the same. Maybe VW could produce the diesel engine for the same price as the Mercrusier, then things would change.

I fully understand your pain. I certainly would use my boat differently at $7.60 than at the current $3.09.

Argonaut · 01-04-2008, 10:15 AM

In Europe on cars ... for many years it was only Taxi drivers who had diesels, then Peugeot brought out a quiet small and economical Diesel.
People started buying them ... and all the mainstream dealers started producing ... when the volume manufacturers joined in (Rover, Ford & GM) price dropped ... often no price difference for a diesel.

The engine became as quiet as a petrol car, no more black smoke and rattling.
The performance was the issue ...
Then as manufacturers started ploughing in development costs ... engines become more powerful, serious increase in acceleration, the bonus of low end torque that has always been a Diesel forte.
Eventually BMW, Audi, Jaguar started making them available ... and today we have powerful, lightweight efficient power packs.

The boat industry has always been a great fan of large low revving diesels .. for economy & reliability, the motor industry has put in the research money, the marine industry could capitalise and take these existing small high revving power units and offer thme in smaller boats.

Mastercraft has lead the way ... maybe others will follow.

Fuel costs have just been announced as going to hit another all time high this month, hope something does change on boat engines in the future.

Perhaps we need the fuel price in US to increase to $7+ a gallon, then the US marine industry would wake up ...

racer2c · 01-05-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osprey

Perhaps we need the fuel price in US to increase to $7+ a gallon, then the US marine industry would wake up ...

Oh, they'd wake up alright. They wouldn't sell any boat under 22'.

swilson · 01-05-2008, 02:12 PM

If the cost of gas went to $7 plus a gallon the whole U.S. economy would go straight to a depression. We are totally dependent on low cost fuel. With that in mind gas will never be that high here. I wonder how much of that $7 a gallon gas in Europe is taxes?

Argonaut · 01-05-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swilson

If the cost of gas went to $7 plus a gallon the whole U.S. economy would go straight to a depression. We are totally dependent on low cost fuel. With that in mind gas will never be that high here. I wonder how much of that $7 a gallon gas in Europe is taxes?

>We are totally dependent on low cost fuel

The same applies everywhere else.
In Europe over 90% of fuel price is taxes.
In UK & Scandinavia we have increasing levels of Environmental taxation, so fossil fuel prices will only keep rising.
I guess if the push towards Hydrogen fuelled cars continues then there will be a huge swing away from being held ransom to OPEC prices.

Hydrogen is produced simply ... electricity + water, and Hydroelectric, wind, wave, geothermal & nuclear can all be used to produce the electricity - removing reliance on oil. (or any fossil fuel)

Brit Rider · 01-05-2008, 05:56 PM

Diesel will come... eventually. As many on here have already seen, its getting there slowly.

I'd expect to see it as a practical option within around 5 years.

Mercruiser are already investing heavily in diesel technology and the whole Cummins Mercruiser partnership will produce some viable options soon.

Anyone remember the 1.7 TD lumps that regal were pushing a few years ago? Reliability and lack of power dogged the engines but now technology has stepped forward things can only get better.. and cheaper...

Not a realistic option right now.. will be soon

Argonaut · 01-06-2008, 03:57 PM

I did see that engine ... useless for my needs (skiing etc)

Things have moved on big time ... and if Mastercraft, who after all live or die by their capability for towed sports only, can now use diesel things must be improving.

Mercruiser after all buy in basic blocks, and as these now exist for small block big hp diesels, perhaps this may be the future .... I'll admit I don't know anything about Cummins range.
I did take a look at the web site they certainly produce 2.8L units in 230hp ... but know idea if the power band and revs suit sportsboating.

Brit Rider · 01-06-2008, 09:30 PM

Diesels lend themselves perfectly for tow sports in terms of low down grunt, output, consumption, maintenance and reliability.. but if people aren't prepared to pay £30k for a Maxum 1800SR3 is ain't going to happen.

Like I say... few more years and the price will have dropped and it'll be more realistic.

Argonaut · 01-06-2008, 09:43 PM

The price delta for a typical high end car diesel over petrol is around £800 - 1,200.
There is no reason why this should be any different for boats, only the powerplant really changes., so delta should be in same range ... unless it's excessive profiteering

Brit Rider · 01-07-2008, 12:20 AM

Sorry, I think you missed the point a bit - The price differences can't be looked on in the same way you do in a car - Petrol and diesel technology in the automotive industry is at the cutting edge with billions being spent annually. Sure the Marine sector can use this research but they gotta pay for it, and VW aren't going to make that cheap! They have big costs to recover. Which is a prime reason why Cummins Mercruiser even exists - to drive this idea forward and make it affordable over time, cos right now the product just isn't affordable enough for small boat applications; they have the product but it's costs are still sky high in comparison to the tried and trusted small gasoline blocks we currently use.

The Merc petrol lumps have been around for years and are dialled in as far as price goes, the economies of scale are huge! The Diesels require newer engines with new R&D costs etc...

Not really sure how better I can explain it; Only other thing I could suggest is you call Barrus (British Merc Distributor) and ask for a price on re-engining your boat - ask for a price on a diesel and a petrol; then you will hopefully appreciate the cost difference; ask them why its so - sure there is some profiteering going on but for the most part its just new costs and new technology that's gotta be paid for.

I'd love to go diesel but it ain't happening for a while yet.

Brit Rider · 01-07-2008, 12:24 AM

I should probably add to the above that the sports boat market (anything 16-30ft) is in big decline... so no ones that keen to dump a load of money into it right now.

The bigger thing we should be worrying about right now is in 2008 all the American dealers are going to be dumping stock left right and centre, which is going to affect the whole world and thus drive sports boat prices down; new and used. Great for new buyers with money to spend - bad news for us that already invested.

My advice is sell now and buy again in 9 months time.