2800 SCR 4.3 V6 ignition problem

[marcucho]

Latest update from yesterday,
I do have 12 V from the red/wht cable coming from the amplifier "black box" like I said before, but it does not hurt to check it again right :-) . Anyway, I replaced all the spark plugs with brand new ones set to .045 as manual and top of the engine label stated. The old sparkplugs were in excellent condition , but hey I already have the new sparkplugs so I install them, Checked on the brand new sparkplugs cable which by the way are 1K ohm compare to 12 ohm or 5k ohm from the old ones.. Made in USA cables no the Chinese ones ( I used the same cables on another set on my starboard engine without problem). I checked on the spark from the coil to distributor.. strong spark and also checked on the spark at the end of the spark plugs .. I also have sparks. I do have videos , but I do not know how to upload videos on the forum so far.. Well, I can smell the gas getting to the carburetor (which I have never mess with it because it works perfect from day one) remember this engine worked fine after all the parts were installed at the trailer , ran for 5 second on water and then died..

I know that fuel is in the carburetor , but I put some starting fluid (which I hated specially in a bilge area) anyway just to remove the missing fuel variable and nothing happened. Engine cranked just fine, but not starting.

The timing was already checked and made sure that it was TDC and the rotor on the distributor was on location 1 , that was to check if the timing chain jumped and thank GOD it did not. after the TDC was found and the rotor was on 1 , the engine was turned several time to check if the rotor got out of location , but always came back on TDC to location 1. Timing chain did not jump.

Distributor got pulled out to check if the gears at the bottom were mess up .. nothing wrong there. I even checked inside the camshaft with the camera. Nothing either.
the coil was swapped with the old coil which still good , but just for testing .. no change. I used the old two wire ignition sensor to try ..nothing . Installed the new 3 wires ignition sensor back to the distributor. I was planning to swap the ignition sensor from the working engine ( like I read that they could go bad after few minutes) but to tell you the true I am afraid to mess up the only working engine I have left so I rather buy a new one.

I also swapped the black box (ignition amplifier) and work just fine on my stb engine..
thinking to put the old rotor ,,, but c'mon there is nothing to it .. it is just a brand new piece of metal.. Also the distributor cap is brand new ..

I checked for spark on each terminal of the distributor going to the spark plugs and Also at the end of the cables before they get to the spark plugs .. I know is duplicated work , but I was just checking how much less spark I get due to the resistance of the cable before they go to the spark plugs... which is minimal 1K ohm.
I know that At this moment the engine is on time , but need adjustment after the distributor was pulled out for checking .. I need to get it back to optimal condition when it finally start , but at least I should be able to start with some miss fire , but start.... for an engine to work just need fuel, spark and compression. with I have all of them ..

Help please...no fun to see everybody passing by and I am in the office (the bilge)


I have attached pictures of every single spark plug from in this order 1,3,5,2,4,6, and a shot of the carburetor where you can see the fuel...


Here is the video for the park test from Coil to distributor

https://youtu.be/CWuUK-HQaN0

Here is the video for the spark test at the sparkplug ( #5) .. not easy to aim where you are by yourself and recording with the phone . you can see the spark at the right upper corner ...

https://youtu.be/oeSiq8RFweY


Thanks

[mmwjr]

Unless I missed it the second video shows nothing but a black screen. Also the picture of the carb doesn’t show gas squirting. Are you pumping it and seeing gas come out the jets?

When trying to start do you hear popping out the carb? Have you tried rotating the distributor back and forth a few degrees when cranking?

[marcucho]

Mike, I was by myself as usual when I am working on the boat .... working on the boat = myself.. engines running ...everybody shows up .. normal right ?
Anyway, the video where I tried to record the spark on ==at the sparkplug the spark is at the right up corner of the video. Also the carburator picture is just me opening the carburator to show the fuel in it.. even with starting fluid (which I do not like to use) I have the same result no starting. I was just opening the the flap on the carb. 2 weeks ago my brother told me that he was able to see the gas from the jets..

I did that test moving the distributor while cranking the engine (with the old sparkpugs) which you could see they were clean and gaped right... so no luck on that try test either.

I

[marcucho]

Back from the boat today.. I had another pickup sensor (new) replaced inside the distributor, installed new gapped to 0.045 sparkplugs last weekend.. did not make any difference. Today i checked the pressure on each cylinder..here are the values..

Piston 1 = 127 close to 130
Piston 3 = 130
Piston 5 = 140
Piston 2= 125
Piston 4= 140
Piston 6 = 150

I also tried using starting fluid with full throttle while cranking (i hate starting fluid specially in a bilge). No starting. I also checked spark on every single sparkplug.. strong spark. And My TDC on piston #1 is on mark with the rotor position on location #1..

Spark, fuel and compression.. and the f!@##% engine does not run... two months already..
I forgot the new sparkplugs were dry but i can smell gas so gas it getting to them
Any more ideas...

[mmwjr]

Any indication it’s trying to fire, popping through the carb? All that is left is timing. Have you considered getting a marine mechanic look at it? The summer is slipping away as you know.

Have verified the spark plug wires are in the correct firing order?

[jparsons121]

Going off the reservation a bit, but are you certain you are on Tdc of the compression stroke? Only ask because you seem to have verified everything else.

[marcucho]

Originally Posted by jparsons121

Going off the reservation a bit, but are you certain you are on Tdc of the compression stroke? Only ask because you seem to have verified everything else.

Twice already . First time when timing chain was checked to see if by any chance had it jumped... and another time when the distributor was pulled out to check the gears and inside the camshaft..

[marcucho]

Originally Posted by mmwjr

Any indication it’s trying to fire, popping through the carb? All that is left is timing. Have you considered getting a marine mechanic look at it? The summer is slipping away as you know.

Have verified the spark plug wires are in the correct firing order?

Mike I already talked to 3 marine mechanic, one told me that he did not want to take my money because I did the troubleshooting and beyond of what he uses for troubleshooting that kind of failure. ( He was honest at least and suggested to check exhaust ) . Second one asked me for pressure on pistons .. he admitted that it is a unique scenario and could be a bad valve or stuck. Third one just said "you got me thinking and I need to investigate more , but I had never seem something like it . "

Plus all the fellows at the dock who one is a retired mechanic and a bunch of season boaters including sailors which I provided a really good topic to drink beer at the dock trying to find the solution..

This situation is getting old and as you mentioned summer is passing by ... I may go out just with one engine .. going just on circle hehehe

[mmwjr]

"going just on circle hehehe"

Well you are in NASCAR territory

[marcucho]

I checked on the voltage at the coil while cranking the engine to check if by any chance the coil was not getting enough juice .. but looks to me that I am on the range for for the coil to work .. it fluctuated from 12v to 10 volts...
Anyway , I got a marine mechanic today to check the engine ... I explained everything I have done to the engine and he checked all the cables and stated that everything is " connected right".. but he mentioned if my battery was old because it sounds weak ... one year old battery, he tested and I was right... it was putting 13Volts out ,he said that the starter is my problem .. I know that I had to replace my starboard engine starter last year ... so the port one is not new < BUT >.. but it does not even sound as bad as the starboard engine starter when I replaced it ...
Here is a video of the test I ran and you can hear the engine cranking ... to be honest I just want to convince myself that the starter is the root cause of my problem ...and no just go get another part to see if that fix the problem thing ... Here is the Video..

https://youtu.be/bo7NS0Vd2B4

[jrsick]

Hard to estimate starter speed from the video, but starter could definitely be your issue. Weak starters sound like good starters. I figured out my starter was weak by counting sparks at #1 cylinder during a 15 second video. See post #2 of this thread. I bought a marine starter on amazon for very good price, manufacturer was DB Electrical and it has worked great so far.

[mmwjr]

IMO based on the video it is cranking to slow so the starter may be the issue. Was the meter reading at the battery or starter? If starter then I agree it needs to be replaced.

[marcucho]

Originally Posted by jrsick

Hard to estimate starter speed from the video, but starter could definitely be your issue. Weak starters sound like good starters. I figured out my starter was weak by counting sparks at #1 cylinder during a 15 second video. See post #2 of this thread. I bought a marine starter on amazon for very good price, manufacturer was DB Electrical and it has worked great so far.

I know my friend that you mentioned this right at the beginning of the post ... what happened to me to believe about the starter issue ? It was that I had problem with the starter on starboard engine before and it sounded really really slow compared to the port side engine ( the one I am troubleshooting now ) so I said this is not a starter problem because my starboard engine ran with a weaker and slower starter .. :-) oh well .. like I said I was just looking for a reason to convince myself that it was the starter and buy another one for my "old but still turning the engine portside starter" ... I WANT TO BE A BELIEVER heheheheh oh man .. I have to laugh now after almost 3 months "wasted " at the dock while everybody past by enjoying their boat ...

Knowing the difficult location to get to the starter on the side of the engine ... I was skeptical to buy a starter that could give me problems in a year ... so I bough for the Starboard engine this starter "ARCO Starter High Performance 30470" The starter is the best starter I ever had. ARCO is manufactured FL and just good things I heard about them. I am sure that a cheaper starter would do it, but Man ,I will be very unhappy If I have to remove the riser and manifold for problematic with the starter again...


Oh well .. starter will be on its way ...

Thankx ..

[marcucho]

Originally Posted by mmwjr

IMO based on the video it is cranking to slow so the starter may be the issue. Was the meter reading at the battery or starter? If starter then I agree it needs to be replaced.

Mike, The video was when I checked the coil voltage values while cranking .. I connect the voltmeter to the positive of the coil (purple cable terminal) .

I just used the video so you could hear the starter and verify that sound like a bad starter ... Like I said looking to convince myself that all my issue is a starter problem.

[mmwjr]

Originally Posted by marcucho

Mike, The video was when I checked the coil voltage values while cranking .. I connect the voltmeter to the positive of the coil (purple cable terminal) .

I just used the video so you could hear the starter and verify that sound like a bad starter ... Like I said looking to convince myself that all my issue is a starter problem.

Then repeat the test but with the volt meter on the starter power this time, good voltage replace the starter.

[jrsick]

hopefully the starter will fix your problem. If it does, I guess the reason that the engine stopped in the first place will be a mystery.
Can you replace the starter without removing the manifold and riser? I know there will be a lot of working blind, but after doing it once already you got the feel.
For removing the manifold, do you know the technique about temporarily replacing two of the mounting bolts with studs so you can slide the manifold off and on?
Just suggestions for your consideration.

[marcucho]

Originally Posted by jrsick

hopefully the starter will fix your problem. If it does, I guess the reason that the engine stopped in the first place will be a mystery.
Can you replace the starter without removing the manifold and riser? I know there will be a lot of working blind, but after doing it once already you got the feel.
For removing the manifold, do you know the technique about temporarily replacing two of the mounting bolts with studs so you can slide the manifold off and on?
Just suggestions for your consideration.

Like you mentioned before why the engine stop on the first time .. would be a mystery .. but lets say the engine just stop for x or Y reason due to the trailer travel .. who knows .. and because Murphy' law my engine decided to just stop and when I tried to crank it again because the Starter did not have enough power to make start right at the ramp... ( I still do not buy the idea , but I bought already the stater. waiting for delivery) worst of the case .. I will have a new stater with a non running engine heheh .. like I said I have to laugh at this point .. Mechanic said that he is 100% sure that the problem is the starter. He let me used the diagnostic cost to the new starter installation . I ask him what about if the problem is not the starter and he said that he is not worried about it because he knows his stuff .. then if for x or Y reason is not the starter then he said .. Jose I will need to really do a very detailed diagnostic which I am not going to charge you, he stated that all my cables are well connected and clean so he also said no to worried because is the starter.

So I always Always do my work on my own , but this time I am going to let him do it B/C if the the new starter does not fix the problem then I got him right at the boat to do the detailed diagnostic without cost to me ... I think that any diagnostic supposes to be detailed , but hey when the mechanic tells you I can hear that starter is bad right at the first turn where the engine needs the much of the push ... I said ..OK .. I rather have the mechanic if fail with the new starter at the boat , than trying to get a mechanic to go to the boat knowing that is not going to get money for another diagnostic and maybe complaining that starter was not installed right hehehe ..

The trick with the bolts .. Oh yeap. I used it many times when I installed the new manifolds (also installed risers and elbows as soon as I bough the boat) . Actually, I used different lengths because the manifolds close to the holding tank needs 2 guide headless bolts around 5" to be able to get the manifold on ... Thank you for the reminder... I have to look for them again

This time I want to be wrong about the starter because I want to get the boat fix just replacing the starter.. seriously.

Thank guys...

[mmwjr]

Note you can damage the starter from all the prolonged cranking you have been doing. So while I believe the starter is bad I cannot guarantee it will fix the non starting issue but based on the other reportings by you I suspect it will.

[marcucho]

OK guys, after a $%^&*( &^%$ time trying to install the new starter on the portside engine and many cuts and bruisers . I can tell you that I have a fast cranking engine that is not working :-) .. crank nice and fast , but it is not working. Having fuel, spark on every single sparkplug, compression anything needed for an engine to run .. well mine is still not running. Here is the link of the video with the new starter https://youtu.be/9NuxW5LC-JM


You can see That by the time I recorded the video I forgot tointall back the water hose connected to the manifolds... water on the bilge.. oh well .. I can tell the water pump its working :-)

last approach will be disconnect the cable socket from the engine ( 10 pin out), to by pass any engine and provide 12 volts to the coil and I need to research to see ifI have to provide 12 V to the fuel pump to get the engine to run as bare metal engine .. no sensor .. just plain engine.. I do not know what else to do..

of course for 5th time going to check AGAIN the TDC and run a camera to the piston to see that the piston is all the way up.. (guys I already did the TDC may times, but I do not know what else to do .. )

getting the boat out this weekend at least with one engine ...


in the lake worst of the case is.. seatow get me back to the dock heheh.. its not like I am going to end up in Bermuda triangle.. Its a lake

[BrianC72]

Does this engine rotate in the same direction as the other engine or does it rotate in the opposite direction. With the cap off, looking down at the rotor while cranking, the standard engine rotor will rotate clockwise. The non-standard or whatever you call it will turn the rotor counterclockwise when viewed from above. If so, your plug wires are all in the wrong place. You will notice there are two sets of numbers on the stock distributor cap:165432 in both the clockwise and counter-clockwise direction. Whatcha got? Does your old starter spin in the same direction as the new one?

I just completed a 4.3 longblock swap with Thunderbolt V ignition on a 2004 1800 SR3. When setting the ignition timing, for me, it was easier to just remove the valve cover on the odd numbered bank. I rotated the crank 720 degrees and observed the rocker arms moving near TDC on the Exhaust/intake stroke, but they were both loose on the compression/power stroke. You could easily wiggle them side to side, they were unloaded. I turned it to 10 degrees BTDC on the correct stroke, dropped in the distributor, then eyeballed the rotor and the cap and rotated the unit so it was right on contact 1. Close enough to get it started with the timing wire grounded and shoot it with a timing light.

Quadruple check that the distributor is fully seated otherwise the oil pump is not turning. Go rent an oil pump priming tool for free from autozone. Spin it up with a drill and confirm oil pressure with the key in the run position. It might take a minute or 3 to build pressure at the gauge sensor on top. Make sure the drive gear in the distributor is secure and unobstructed.

My guess is either your plug wires are out of order, your safety system is cutting in, or the distributor's oil drive or even the rotor itself is slipping.

If you've got fuel, compression and spark, that leaves timing.